TC: “I asked my friend to introduce me to an openly gay cadet, so I could get some perspective, what it’s like now…For them, it’s always been okay.”

What is your birth year?

1965.

How old are you?

53.

What branch of the United States Armed Forces did you serve in?

[I was in] two and a half; I started in ROTC, and as part of Army ROTC, I was in the simultaneous membership program. As part of my ROTC training I was part of an Army security agency battalion in the Army reserve, then I transferred to California Army National Guard. When I wanted to go active duty, I really didn’t see myself as an Army guy, and took an opportunity to join the Navy, so I went and enlisted in the Navy. 

What was your rank?

I left as a petty officer third class, as a machinist. 

Where did you serve?

When I was in the reserves, I was in Bell, California, and then the Army National Guard was in Burbank, California. When I was in the Navy, I did boot camp and machinist training in Great Lakes, Illinois, just outside of Chicago, and then for nuclear power school I was in Orlando, and then I was on my ship in Norfolk, Virginia. 

Where were you born?

Born in L.A., raised in Malibu. 

Do you have any siblings?

I have a brother and a sister, both younger.

What schools did you attend?

I graduated from Santa Monica High School, and had classmates from junior high onward who were part of the West Coast rat pack- Charlie Sheen, Rob Lowe, Robert Downey Jr., Dean Cain, Chris and Sean Penn, Holly Robinson Pete- it was bananas. They were all just regular, normal people. Did you know any of those celebrities personally?Yeah! My best friend in ninth grade was Charlie. It is crazy! They went on to do amazing things. From there I went on to Cal State Northridge, and was in the UCLA ROTC program. Couple community colleges back east, when I was in the Navy. I finished at San Jose State University College.

Can you tell me any specific memories you have from your childhood?

Growing up on the beach; in summertime, my hair was really blonde. As it got darker over the years, every summer it’d [be] bleached from the sun. I pretty much lived on the beach over the summertime. All our school photos would be bright blonde, and then by the end of the year it would be dark again.

Did you play any sports growing up?

I did. I played football, and in high school I was on the wrestling and swimming teams. Marching band… marching band qualified as a sport at my school.

Tell me about high school.

I learned how to channel my rabble-rousery. I had issues with authority, mostly because authority lies and cheats all the time, and it was just really eminent to me. For me, it was important to hold the principal’s feet to the fire on doing what was right for the students rather than what would be it for them. I ran for parliamentarian of the student body against Rob Lowe, and he won. {Laughs} He mentions me in his autobiography, the first one he wrote- not by name but as the one kid in school who was nerdier than he was. He was not very nerdy, so I don’t take that too personally. He won, and then I became junior class president, and then ran for student representative on the Board of Education. [I] did not win that one, but I was at every Board of Education meeting, I was very active- I was probably the only student around who had read the California education code cover to cover. I knew how things were supposed to be, and I was just very active with making things right for the students, and pushed through an initiative [on] something we had called academic counseling. The students, every Tuesday, the classes were something like six minutes shorter, so by the end of the day, you had 45 extra minutes in the day. Students who didn’t want to go to academic counseling- which was a chance for teachers to work one on one with a few students, vs. the thirty students in the whole class- they were doing that my tenth grade year, the year I got to Santa Monica High School. They stopped doing that my junior year, and I was very upset. The rationale was just complete bullshit, because the principal said, “Well, not everybody is taking advantage of it!” Well, if you had everyone taking advantage of it, you’d have school, and not academic counseling! Teachers wouldn’t be able to do all of them. I was taking advantage of it, but a lot of students would just sleep in, they’d show up later. I was supported by Dr. Kearsley, who was the honorary major of Malibu, but he was the chair of the social studies department. He supported me- he saw a fellow rabble-rouser. He went to the University of Chicago in 1968, which was the Democratic National Convention and The Chicago Eight Trial. He was there, and he saw me as the next generation coming up, holding authority to account. I started my club, called The Students for Educational Democracy, which scared the bejesus out of the administrators, and so we needed a faculty sponsor, and he sponsored it. Being the chair of the department, there was nothing they could do- they couldn’t take his tenure away, they could do nothing. He was just watching me do this, and he trained me in sociological data-gathering. We put together a questionnaire; he required all social studies to come into an assembly, where I would share my studies and actually make it a project- get the whole student body involved. We took that to the Board of Education; the Board of Education said that this was amazing and reasonable, there should be academic counseling. I did the same thing for the 12-A application, which meant that seniors in their second semester could take less than a full day. You needed to have at least 5 periods to qualify for the state of California school, because you’re in the seat. They had an exemption, and I did the same kind of thing, and got the exemption for my second semester. I only needed one class my second semester, so I would go from 7 o’clock to 8, and then I would have the whole day. It was bananas! I was very active, and informed, and did my research. I was an activist; I was trying to do good things.

You mentioned you were part of UCLA’s ROTC program. What decided this?

I had a romantic notion of the military, at the time, which has been completely disabused in the process. Being allergic to arbitrary administration ended up not working for me, but it was a very good learning experience. I was a romantic, so we weren’t at any wars, in the moment; we had some neighbors come back from Vietnam, when I was a kid. We got their uniforms- because they didn’t want anything to do with them- so we’d play Army, and have Army uniforms. I had this romantic notion; I had uncles who were in the military, and my dad came of age between Korea and Vietnam- he graduated from college in the mid ‘50s and was beyond draft age by the time I came along, so he didn’t go into the military- but I just had this romantic notion. My grandfather, his cousins- Navy men. They all went off to the Korean war- my father was ten years younger than them. I’d see all these pictures, and my cousin had her wedding cake cut with a Navy sword- it was just this whole thing. I didn’t come from my parents; I really don’t know where it came from except from family photos. I thought it would be cool, and interesting. Disabused, later.

How old were you when you joined ROTC?

I was 18.

Where were you living at the time?

In Santa Monica.

Do you remember your first days in service? What was it like?

It was physically demanding; there’s a lot of PT, and I was okay with that. I had struggled with my weight for a long time, so that gave me some kind of regimented physical activity that I hadn’t had since playing football.

What was your boot camp or training experience like?

That was exciting and terrifying at the same time. It’s like, “Oh my God, what have I done?” But, at the same time, it was a challenge, so I had to pay attention. I also learned quickly what the rules were, and how to abide by the rules while still doing what I wanted to do. It was a little scary. I was also excited; it was something new, it was providing some discipline that I hadn’t had before. My mom came for my graduation as a surprise; she flew all the way from L.A. to   Chicago for my boot camp graduation. That really was touching, and looking back, she really wanted to show her support. This was a life decision that I’d made, and she was there for me.

Do you recall your trainers or instructors? Their expectations of you?

Yes. Aviation Boatsman Schneider and Quarter Masterchief Morgan were on their second or third company, to work with, and to take through the boot camp training. It seemed like the group that I was in was where they put all the screw-ups. It really was like pulling teeth to get anybody to do what they were supposed to do, and there were a few of us who were actually trying to do well, but it was mostly screw-ups. They didn’t put the effort in; they didn’t go above and beyond for our company.

I joined the nuclear power program, which was one of the things that I wanted to do that was challenging. I also didn’t want to just be a grunt, and part of why I didn’t go into the Army, because there really was no way to not be a grunt. I looked at the Marine Corps, and all they had was mess specialists, or cooks. I’m now in the food industry, but I think I would’ve had a very different experience if I’d been in the Marine Corps. I wanted something that was challenging; it was too challenging, it turns out, I couldn’t handle the math. Even though during my physical, coming in, I had my eyes checked and they passed, I needed glasses. I was having these incredible headaches; I went to the sick call and they gave me drugs for it, and then that made it harder to read, and then my headaches got worse, and then I got more drugs- it was just this spiral down. I ended up failing out of nuclear power.

Where exactly did you go during your service?

We were in Little Creek, which is an amphibious base next to Norfolk, Virginia. After that, we were over in Norfolk, proper.

What was the weather like?

It was 80 something above zero when I took off from L.A., and it 80 something below zero, with wind chill, in Virginia. It was one of the coldest winters on record, and so it was cold, and there was lots of snow. That being said, I could smell spring coming. I was there February through May, and you could just smell spring coming. It was the first time I’d had that change, from winter to spring. Malibu, it snows once every ten year, a quarter of an inch, on the top of some mountain somewhere. Having the experience of not being able to get out of snow- we’d vacationed in the mountains, snow skiing and whatnot- I’d been in snow before, but not completely surrounded by it all the time.

What was your job or assignment there? Did it change over time?

I was a machinist mate, third class, petty officer. I ended up, because I was computer literate and organized, and on the ball, becoming basically the log-room, basically an administrative assistant, but they didn’t have one for that position, so they pulled me in because I knew how to do paperwork. When I was in the Army National Guard, that was the same kind of role I assisted the company commander [with]. I knew the forms, and I knew how to get stuff done. That’s what I ended up doing; even though I trained as a plumber of large proportions. Rather than dealing with a one-inch pipe, you’re dealing with an eighteen-inch pipe. Machinist mates deal with water, oil, steam- all the cooling systems, all the propulsion systems, all the pumps that make fluids that make that go- have to get moved around the ships, and machinist mates are the ones that make that happen.

Tell me about any specific memories or experiences that stand out. 

I met my first three boyfriends in the Navy; the first one, I met just after boot camp, in Chicago. The second one, I met in Orlando, when I was there- he was an officer, which made it interesting, because you’re not supposed to do that. Then, I met my third boyfriend when I was in Norfolk. He was a civilian, and the first boyfriend was enlisted with me at boot camp.

What were the most trying and difficult moments of service?

Dealing with the gay issue. Back then, it was still- not technically illegal, but against policy. There was a statute that prohibited gay people from serving that was signed and made into law by Bill Clinton- making it illegal to be homosexual in the military. Doesn’t make sense to me. There was this constant fear of a witch-hunt, of people finding out. I ended up being discharged for being gay under that policy, but I did that willingly, because my situation had just become untenable. Dealing with coming out- I was a budding alcoholic, and the military definitely supports that, subsidizing alcoholic sales at the exchanges. There was no lack of alcohol. Today, looking back, I would call myself a hot mess. I’m glad that I was able to get out, I hope that people who are in a similar situation today have the support that they need, and don’t have to get out that way.

What were the best memories of service?

Looking back, what did I get out of it: I learned that I could have discipline, I learned that I could get a job done, I could learn a skill and use it. I learned that I could get up early- make my bed, shave, and dress myself appropriately- every day, and be up at 5, eating and getting out there by 7. Having that kind of discipline, and knowing that I could do that- I’d never had that experience before, and that just really helped me understand that I could do anything. If I had the support, I could accomplish anything I wanted to do. That was probably the best takeaway.

Were you awarded any medals or citations?

No.

How did your sexuality effect your service?

It was always the Damocles, hanging over me constantly. Any moment, you could be packed up and shipped off. I was arrested and interrogated when I was in Orlando; they were on a witch-hunt, and they had reason to suspect me. I declined to make a statement; my boyfriend was an officer and he was probably two or three months ahead of me in that process. He told me, “Say this, don’t say that.” I wanted to stay in, and so I was able to answer, or not answer, questions in a particular way. Turns out they had no case; when I found that out, [and that] they were waiting for [me] to screw up, I went to the commanding officer, who was a commodore- one-star admiral. She hadn’t authorized the witch-hunt; it was some lower officer taking it upon himself to do it. She, being a closeted lesbian, was not cool with it. I figured that she was, and she shut that down, and granted my request to go to the fleet. Like, “The Navy spent millions of dollars training me, it’s completely wasted.” I spent six months doing landscaping. “Please send me to the fleet, or kick me out. One or the other, but I’m tired of waiting.”

What were your friends and family’s reaction to your service?

They were proud of me; coming home early, my friends knew that coming home after two years- I was a long term commitment, six years active- they were curious. They were proud of me, and saw the change in my demeanor and personality. I used all that experience, and knowledge, to help me go through school.

How did you stay in touch with them?

Letters, and phone calls. The one friend who stopped writing was Charlie. I had letters from Charlie Sheen. He was the last friend I said goodbye to; drove out, told him I was going into the military. It was soon after that that they shot Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, which was his- he wasn’t a main character, but he had that scene. That’s when I was in Great Lakes. Soon after that was Platoon; once you’re making a million dollars for a few month’s work, and you’re 20 years old, your friends change. Your friends can’t just get on a plane and go to Cannes for a week just because they want to. I don’t blame him at all, but it was tough, losing touch with those friends while I was serving. The only people I really kept in touch with from back home while I was serving was my family. Did you keep in touch with any celebrity friends? Dean Cain- Lois and Clark, he played Superman- I had a huge crush on Dean when I was in junior high and high school. Huge, huge. He came through for WizardCon a few years ago, and was in Portland. I went, and said hello, and we ended up hanging out at his booth for two days. In between photos and autographs, we would just catch up on all the things. His life is very different from mine, and it was really great. Every time I saw a classmate on the screen, whether television or movie, I was really happy for them. It felt like it was taking me back home a little bit, and seeing them working, and being successful, was just awesome.

Did you feel stress or pressure about your service?

The only stress was the gay thing. That was just overriding everything. The jobs that I did I was good at, was trained for. I really didn’t have any job-related stress other than the gay thing.

What did you think of your fellow soldiers?

What I got exposed to was a really wide variety of people that I had not. West Los Angeles, especially Malibu and Santa Monica, is a very protected place, especially to grow up. We had no exposure to anything but WASP America. To be in close proximity- sleeping, showering, working close by, hanging out after work- socializing and developing relationships with people from everywhere, all ethnicities and cultures and religions. It was a lesson; it was a lesson in tolerance of other people’s views, and acceptance of people as they are. I got to work that muscle a lot. {Laughs} Just taking people where they are, and trying to put myself in their position; actually empathize instead of sympathize.

Did you keep in touch with any of these people? If so, for how long?

Soon after my departure, I stayed in touch with a few. LinkedIn has helped find people; I actually found my first boyfriend on LinkedIn. We haven’t yet communicated- I think he set up the profile and never went back. I looked up a couple people, and made a couple phone calls within a few years of leaving. There’s a website, Military.com, that helps you find people. I found out that one guy that I was on the ship with- called him Gino- he left, and became a Chicago cop. I looked up a couple other shipmates from one ship that I was on, but wasn’t able to contact them. I did contact one of my nuclear power school friends; we had three of us sitting at one table. Kevin and I struck up a friendship that lasted through nuclear power school, and I reached out to him a number of years later. I had lived with his family after leaving the Navy, because I didn’t feel ready to go all the way home, and so we developed a relationship beyond the service. I’ve lost touch with him. My nuclear power school roommate, I reached out to maybe twelve years ago. We exchanged letters a few times after I left the Navy; I found this letter, years later. He had moved back home, and he went into magnesium harvesting. I think he actually finished nuclear power school, so he would’ve had the credentials I didn’t. He was working in Delaware, and basically they bring in sea water, and they have some process that pulls the magnesium out of the sea water. It was great for us to reconnect; we haven’t talked in maybe ten years. I think of those guys a lot, because those were some great formative years for me. Sometimes I wonder. I did reconnect with my first boyfriend, maybe a little less than ten years after we were at boot camp. He was out of the military, and I looked him up back when people used the phone- 411. I called information, and asked for him- “Here’s his mother’s phone number!” So I called his mom- “Hey, we were in the Navy together.” “Oh, he just bought his own house, he’ll have his own phone number in a couple days- here’s the number.” I called him; I had gotten a tax refund just before then, so I was flush with cash. I bought him a plane ticket and flew him out to California. It was around the holidays, and we spent a week together driving down from San Jose to Santa Monica, and got to reconnect, and really completed that story. It wasn’t intentionally complete- it ended, because we had left, but it wasn’t any closure. We got to intentionally close it, and get to know each other in a way that wasn’t possible when we were in the middle of it. It was really nice.

Why, or when, did your service end?

I had been trying to connect with the gay people on my ship. I was what they called a 4-O sailor. Everything was polished; I had ribbons from when I was in the National Guard. I was wearing my Army marksmanship medals in Navy form. I was just very by the book, and they had had a drug bust on the ship right before I arrived- a snitch had been removed. Here I was- ship pulls into port and I’m standing on the dock, 4-O sailor, ready to go; even though it makes no sense whatsoever, they decided that I was the replacement. Because I was looking for the gay people, they assumed that’s why I was looking for them- to kick them out. I felt very alone; it was really hard. I was drinking more and more- went to the chaplain quite a bit, dealing with it. Finally, I just decided that I was going to go home. I knew, because of my experience in Florida going through the NIS investigation- I ended up getting interviewed for Conduct Unbecoming, which was Randy Schlutz’s gay people in the U.S. military- but it turns out that was just their MO. Drag you in and try to get you to confess. It was very medieval. I knew exactly what to say and how to say it to get an honorable discharge, but still get out. I said those things, went to the executive officer, and he thanked me for sharing. He wasn’t going to do anything. We were getting ready for Guantanamo Bay, and [I was] going to stay. I had been experiencing some hostility from those guys who thought I was looking for them to kick them out. Word had spread around the ship that I was NIS and not a real sailor. I was fearing for my safety. When they found out that I had come out to the XO, things changed. They got a little better, but not much. I was looking at: do I stay or not? I decided to not stay. There was a family day, as we were getting ready to ship out to Guantanamo- all the families came on board, and it was kind of an on-board picnic day. It was not a real pass, but I made a pass at the captain’s son- the captain’s son was 16 years old, and he [thought] that I was very interested. I knew that that would immediately go to the captain, and I would get thrown out. Did you know that you would be kicked out because of your actions? Oh, I knew that that would happen. I had hoped to be processed because of my first conversation with the executive officer, but that wasn’t going to happen. Once it became common knowledge that I was gay and being discharged, I was actually more included. I got put through all the hazing rituals that happen- it’s like, “Oh, he’s leaving, let’s do all these things!” I was finally included, but then it took a few weeks for me to go. The way that the whole ship found out- even though it was a private personnel matter, the requests need to be approved by the Pentagon. Rather than sending it by mail, they sent it by radio; all the radio traffic gets printed and posted in the ward room, so all the chiefs and officers saw the narrative. I was immediately outcast at that level, but my peers accepted me- “We don’t care that you’re gay.” {Laughs} Even if they had accepted me, I would’ve feared for my life, because there were stories of guys getting wrapped up in chains and thrown overboard in the middle of the night. I was not interested in that, getting attacked. It was not worth the trade off, for me.

How did you feel?

I was still very much an alcoholic, and so dealing with being gay in general still had to be done. It was a relief to not have that hanging over my head. There was some sadness; the day before I got discharged, we went out to bay- when we cruised around Chesapeake Bay, I went out to the front of the ship, and got some salt mist in my face. I wanted to have an experience. They understood that, and so they loosened it up a little for me. I was a hot mess; I was emotional, and this chaplain was such an interesting person. He was so good to me. He said, “I’m making an eleventh commandant for you. Thou shall not ‘should’ on thyself.” I had things that should be a certain way; I should be a certain way, and I was just lot of should-ing on my life, and the universe. It was very disempowering, and by helping me release that language, he allowed me to be okay with myself, albeit after I left the military. Within two and a half years, three years, I stopped drinking, started going to AA- in less than a month I’ll have my 30th AA birthday- that stuck. In no small part what I learned about myself in the military- that I could do pretty much anything I wanted to- that knowledge helped me stay sober.

 

Did you have a family after your service? How did your service affect this?

The photo is with my fiancée. After boot camp and before nuclear power I had gotten engaged to a friend from back home. We went to the same church; we were friends, but not dating. I had gotten engaged while I was on leave. That was very much- two purposes. One was for me to have a steady relationship that wasn’t illegal. {Laughs} That was A, and B, it helped me not be the sore thumb sticking out, to be quite as obvious. After I was arrested and went through that whole thing in Orlando, that was when she came out to visit me, because I had broken off our engagement, and she wanted to come out and see me and have a conversation with me and actually talk about it. It took us twenty years to complete that relationship; she’s now happily married. The son that she had when I was still in high school is now successful. He was two years old; I also wanted to give him a father, because his father was not in his life. I have a partner of 16 years, and we have no desire to have children. In that learning who I am and what I’m about during the crucible of my military experience has definitely informed who I am today.

What was your job or career after the war?

I ended up just being an entrepreneur. I was studying English, and writing, I was on a teacher track; I ended up deciding not to be a teacher. I was on a technical writing track and decided not to be a technical writer. I was on a professor track- my professors wanted me to get a PhD because they loved my work- I decided there was just too much politics in universities and not to do that. I ended up taking jobs in technology; learned how to do tech. I loved technology; that’s part of the reason I got my job aboard the ship, because I knew how to use computers. It was a passion for me, so I ended up working at Samsung, and Apple, and Netcom, and AOL. After that, I decided not to work for other people, and started my own company. I’ve been in technology and marketing since then.

How did your military service affect how you think about wars today?

I have an understanding of why people go in; I understand how most people have no idea why they are getting sent somewhere, and why they are getting told to do what to do. Having some compassion for the service members who are out there doing whatever they are doing, and at the same time understanding now a lot better what actually sends people to war, and how most of the reasoning is just complete bullshit. It’s just ridiculous and useless. I ended up giving a talk on social media; I got invited to speak at West Point, to the domestic affairs council. It was a really great experience; I had goosebumps the entire time, just being there. Benedict Arnold was there. History happened on this place! General McArthur sat there. It was amazing. I had a friend who was a cadet; I honor why he joined. He went through his four years there with service. I connected with some of the cadets who were at my talk, and we’re still friends on Facebook, and keep up- they’re all officers now, and doing very well in their careers. What was most interesting to me was that Don’t Ask Don’t Tell had been repealed. It’s actually perfectly fine to be gay, and honored- your partner is honored. I asked my friend to introduce me to an openly gay cadet, so I could get some perspective, what it’s like now. For them, Don’t Ask Don’t Tell had been repealed when they were in middle school. For them, it’s always been okay. For me, it was important to help them see that it hasn’t always been this way. As officers, people in their companies that are gay who have been there longer and had to deal with Don’t Ask Don’t Tell- here’s Conduct Unbecoming. I actually bought a bunch of books on Conduct Unbecoming and sent them to West Point, so that those officers- not that they had any time to read extra books- I was hoping to make some kind of a dent in how gay people are understood. I am heartened by what I am hearing now out of the Pentagon, especially with transgender soldiers. It’s just lightyears ahead of where it was. It doesn’t make being in the military itself any easier, but at least they don’t have that kind of pressure.

What do you think the general public should know about war?

It’s probably not what you think it is.

Have you found adequate resources and connections in Portland?

I have not utilized my veteran’s benefits very much; I fell between the G.I. bills- we had V.E., veteran’s education assistance- which didn’t assist very much. I exhausted that pretty quickly. I was told at some point that I didn’t qualify for VA benefits because I was in duty less than two years, and actually if I had known that would happen I would’ve stuck it out another three months. Getting the wrong answer from someone in the military is really common- they really don’t know what they are talking about most of the time. It’s like gospel- I may qualify, but I haven’t had a need to apply.

How did your service affect your life?

It gets back to the knowing what I’m capable of, and knowing what it feels like to be supported with resources. I had an opportunity to meet Arnold Strong, who was the public affairs officer for the Oregon National Guard for a number of years. He retired from the Army some time ago. Having a conversation with him about my experience was easy, and empowering. Through him, I met a retired three-star general here in Oregon. I had a conversation with him and his wife about my experience; they are just great people. Being in Oregon, and having the opportunity to meet those people, gave me a little bit of hope. [The] general is on a short list to become the next VA administrator- secretary of the VA. That is cool, and that gives me a lot of hope, because I know he’s very much a realist, but he’s also about empowering people and giving them the resources they need to get the job done. He’s not a bullshiter, and he’s not out for the medals, the glory. He wasn’t out to be the general, but he was doing his job, and doing it well, and he has been acknowledged for that. That gave me a little bit of hope, and understanding. I’m wary of the smoke screens happening again, that took us into Iraq, and Iraq- {Laughs} Other places that we shouldn’t have been. The reasons we were told we were going was untrue, and they knew it was untrue. The military has to do what they are told to do. It’s just having real compassion for the people who are doing that work, because they can’t know. They can’t do research when they’ve got jobs to do. How can they research whether it’s a legal order? Also helping people understand that it’s part of the job- go in with your eyes open, and understand that you’re not going to be able to know until after you’ve killed a million people. 

FullSizeRender 53 copy.jpgAuthor’s Note: This project was recently featured in Portland’s Street Roots Newspaper. Read the article here: http://news.streetroots.org/2017/11/10/these-veterans-have-lived-something-extraordinary-portland-student-listens-shares

This interview has been lightly edited for readability. However, to maintain integrity, and to respect the stories of the veteran, content has not been altered from the original transcription. This interview was originally recorded and later transcribed. Questions partially retrieved from:

“Guidelines.” Veterans History Project. Library of Congress, n.d. Web. 23 June 2017. <www.loc.gov/vets/guidelines.html>.

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